Meat cleaver or monkey wrench

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Meat cleaver or monkey wrench

Hi guys,

I was wondering was is better/stronger between the meat cleaver and the wrench. In my last experiences the monkey wrench seemed to be performing way better, yes it wont make the opponent bleed but I can break their limbs and that is even more effficient.

What I found on the forum is that the meat cleaver is said to be the most efficient melee weapon but after trying the wrench I would vouch for that one. It also seems more rare too, letting me think that its the reason why it would be stronger.

Hey Moryseth,

I'm not sure which is beter, but I've had beter luck with the cleaver personally. One thing you can do is build a new character and try to recreate the last game, see if you still feel the same way about the monkey wrench. I do this anytime something seems to be wildly successfull just to see if I'm having a lucky game or something like that. I've never broken my own or any one elses bone so I think I'd like to try that out. Do you have to have melee to do that?

I don't find monkey wrenches to be rare at all in my experiences. Someone was just saying the other day how they never have a problem finding a shopping cart, one in every shack they say, yet I only see maybe two total in a complete playthrough. Thats been my own experiences anyway. Good Luck!!

I haven't found the monkey wrench to be rare at all. In fact, since it has no current use as a tool right now, I seem to find it everywhere. Last night I was tripping on the damn things.

As far as wrench vs cleaver, it boils down to the numbers. They both have a damage index of about 0.6 or so, but the wrench is bashing, while the cleaver is piercing. So the wrench will yield more internal bleeding & the cleaver will yield more external bleeding.

In my experience, internal bleeding generally is not as serious as external bleeding as far as the game goes. There is no system for treating internal wounds in the game, other than rest & maybe some tannin tea or an antibiotic + pain killers. Conversely, if an external wound is left untreated, it leads into infection.

However, your milage may vary. Another popular weapon is the saucepan, because it's multi-functional & means less for you to carry. It has a damage index close to the cleaver & monkey wrench. To my way of thinking, the crowbar should really get more love, because it has a longer reach than the other melee weapons, and can do bashing & piercing damage.

"Principles have no real force except when one is well-fed." - Mark Twain

Thanks for the input guys I will look into it and I agree with giving love to the crowbar. As for breaking members I do have the melee skill so maybe that's how I manage to do that. I also tend to stun which I guess cannot be done with the cleaver either.

For the rarity, I don't issues finding wrench but I tend to see 1 wrench for 3 cleavers but I never found a saucepan or a damn cart so far :P

Update on this.

Monkey Wrench has a damage index of 1.4 bashing, but a penetration of 0. A cleaver has a damage index of 1.2 piercing, and a penetration of 1.

So basically, it's pretty much a wash. I've tested both, and either one will do the job. I've been using a monkey wrench for a change of pace this run, and it's rather nice.

"Principles have no real force except when one is well-fed." - Mark Twain

I think you guys have pretty much covered all the angles here. They really are comparable, though the long-term effects of being cut by the cleaver may win out in longer engagements.

However, the blunt weapons are the only ones that can break an arm, causing crippling and dropped weapons. So there's a benefit there, too.

I guess after typing that, the next logical question is: when can bladed weapons sever a limb? I don't know, but that does make sense :)

I think I agree with the crowbar sentiments. I initially made it less damaging, since I figured the wrench would have more density and weight. But probably the length of the crowbar would give more angular momentum. It'd risk making the crowbar too powerful, though, which is concerning. It would become not only a useful tool, but one of the better weapons.

It may also be time to start exploring melee weapons with range > 0. Having faced some angry dogs in the past, I can tell you I'd rather have a long weapon like a crowbar vs. a pocket knife, even though the knife could cut flesh.

Maybe the crowbar needs a damage boost, and a range of 1? And maybe it needs to be more rare to compensate?

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

Your ideas on the crowbar make a lot of sense. I really liked the idea of a scavenging boost for the crowbar, but if it becomes more rare then we'd lose that aspect of the game and the crowbar would be pretty OP. Perhaps a new tool could be introduced to help scavenging? I'm thinking of something like a pry bar, or metal fence post, etc. This could be a little more common of a find (fence posts are everywhere!) but to balance it out it could have a smaller boost to scavenging and be heavier. It also sort of makes sense: if there were crumbling, dilapidated buildings it would make sense to bring along a metal post to help move debris and stuff aside.

Hey Dan, I tend to agree with your thoughts about how to change the crowbar, it also seems the most like a weapon out of the tool/weapon combos in the game.

Hey Dan,

I agree although it may not be necessary for it to become super rare. You have to carry the crowbar in your hand so its already a sacrifice and a commitment to have it on you at all times. Even if the crowbar was more effective as a weapon I wont carry it on me all the time its to much of a hassle. If you commit the crowbar to a hand slot then I feel like your entitled to good damage with it, I don't think it should have to be super rare on top if it. N e ways just my opinion. Good Luck!!

I've been lurking for a while, and finally decided to properly join the community. I've only played the demo, and am completely out of the loop as far as the beta goes - I would prefer to play the game when it is closer to "done" so as to not spoil the game for myself.

Specifically in regards to the "length vs weight" comparison to weapons, I think perhaps there should be sub-classes within weapon groups. For example, currently there is the bladed and blunt weaponry for melee combat. I think it would be nice to further breakdown those weapons into specialized roles, because not all clubs serve the same purpose. For instance, hammers are heavy-headed and meant for striking in a precise manner - something that would be well suited to causing great bruising and pain, as well as crushing bones. On the other hand, the crowbar is heavy and has a good length, meant for creating leverage. This would lend well to giving it great momentum, and causing great amounts of surface damage, but lacking the penetration to break bones as well as hammers. Also, the length of the crowbar would lend itself better to being used defensively; it can be held with both hands and used to shove an attacker. I don't think the inherent weight of a blunt weapon should confer any penalties to accuracy, etc.

TL;DR - Different classes of weapons within a broader category. Within "Blunt Weapons" Hammers are better at breaking bones and causing bruising while dealing less damage. "Clubs" deal greater damage while being less capable of breaking bones and causing less severe bruising. Also, in general, "clubs" would weigh more than "hammers," meaning that they are not only more cumbersome to carry, but are harder to store in your pack.

Are we talking like a Sledge Hammer, a Claw Hammer or a Ball Peen Hammer?

Theres also the aspect of Piercing. When I cant find a weapon in the first day, I go with a medium sized branch. Great for clubbing someone over the head, but what about the dangers of having a hole poked in you by aggressive force of stick or metal bar or whatever being jabbed at your face like a spear?

Come to think of it, why don't I have the option to make "Sharpened Stick" right now?

+ 1 for spears. We have all the tools to make it!!

Oh and spears could possibly be used to take down bigger game hogs, raccoon, maybe a deer but there smart and cunning animals.

How about halberds:
Crowbar / "medium sized branch from a tree"
+
"assorted screws, washers, resistors, pins, wires, sprockets, springs, etc." / "a handful of string, twine, floss, etc." / dirty rags / clean rags

..and definitely sharpened sticks and stones and/or even tin can lids! Being able to use this "tie a sharp object to a long object" concept to make a makeshift bayonet onto a hunting rifle would also rock.
Different kinds of explosives should also be a go (lighter fluid + tin can + rag/string + screws & bottle + lighter fluid + rag/string).
I was sort of disappointed that one couldn't use a glass bottle (out of whiskey etc) as a melee weapon. (Either a whole one as a mace or a broken one as a sort of a knife; should also be possible to break them on demand and get both shards and the handle part and a cup part - then the glass - especially when filled with clear water - should also be used for setting fires as with magnifying glass.)
Being able to manufacture/craft a sort of shield out of "Shop-Mart 'Trek' polyester and flannel sleeping bag" and other fabric objects onto ones arm/leg to protect against both bites/scratches/stab wounds as well as against blunt traumas. Think big round dog-trainer -suits.

While I'm on a run here, why not suggest flails too. =) Meat cleaver/Glass Bottle/Tin Can tied to a cloth string (tied together rags)/wire/string. Filling those containers with sand/ashes or liquids would add to their weight. Thus even plastic bottles could be used. For added effectiveness, stick a few nails/sharp sticks trough those containers (can be done even with glass bottles, but would require tools/heat).

Nets/covers made of "8x10 tarps"/joined clothes would also be quite effective. Those could further be used as trap components. Covered (& thus blinded & restricted) opponent is much easier to handle and defeat than a free one. "Pearson 'Yukon' canvas backpacks" (& perhaps even "disposable plastic shopping bag") could IMHO also be used as in a "bag onto head" -tactic. (This followed by an applied blunt force trauma to said covered head is usually very effective.) I've mentioned it before, but being able to use gas-proof materials (such as those shopping bags) as means to suffocate enemies should also be possible. In this way, one could fashion effective weapon out of backpack alone, if one covered the insides of it with a shopping bag plastic, and attached a means to fasten it shut with ropes/wires in various locations/positions. (Manage to put it on opponents head + fasten the rope at the mouth of backpack = trapped arms/limbs; fasten the rope at the center of backpack - around the neck of the opponent that is - suffocate the heck out of them.) Putting in some ashes or coating the insides with lighter fluid (or identified poison plant juices) would also add a very effective deterrent that would in best case scenario make the enemy vomit inside the tightly shut shopping bag possibly drowning them while at the same time incapacitating and stunning. (Toxic fumes are not to be joked with.)

Boots (or cans/bottles/pill bottles) could be tied together to make a makeshift bolas ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas ) - douse them in lighter fluid and light them on fire for even more effectiveness (though that would start to require some skill in handling the weapon).
"Blue jeans" should also be usable as a makeshift rope (that a crowbar for example could be tied to and swung).
(And do remember that anything that is connected with a sort of a rope can be used to tangle and also strangle ones enemy.)

..well, sorry for the overly long post, but it's just infuriating how a character with mechanic and melee skills, while equipped with hacking mentality can't make use of available materials and tools. Just remember that even the most mundane objects can make for very deadly weapons. Regular hammers most of all (way better than monkey wrenches!) especially if concealed (for example in a shopping bag) for a surprise attack.

[edit]Came to my mind, that one should be able to toss ashes/sand into enemy eyes..[/edit]
[edit #2]Adding more weapon ideas: Rags + screws etc = makeshift knuckle dusters, same could be attached to boots and wooden branches.
8x10 tarp could be used as a tripping weapon: place it on the ground, and pull on it when the enemy gets on top of it to get to melee distance with you. (Might need to conceal it/place several around you for this to be effective - but still.)[/edit #2]

God promised an end to all wicked people. Odin promised an end to all Ice Giants. I don't see any Ice Giants...

I like the idea of protective clothing, although armour isn't a part of the game at all so far. If you have a wrapped-up arm that is protected against dog bites/claws, the first thing people are going to complain about it why doesn't it protect against wrenches and cleavers too, so you're either doing armour or not - you can't just do anti-dogman armour. Me, I think the game should feature armour anyway.

I also love the idea of making a shield. That's quite a big tactical choice to have to make as well - takes up a hand that could hold the rifle & scope, commits you to being a short-sighted melee beast. Or you could wear it on your back instead of a bag - gives you extra protection while retreating?

Glass bottles would be great starting weapons of desperation - chance to break and disappear while causing extra damage either to the enemy or to your hand. Maybe a chance to break and become a jagged broken bottle that is still usable, but now piercing rather than blunt.

It depends, when using the monkey-wrench with a critical hit, I tend to drop enemies faster then with the butcher knife, but without crtis, I tend to kill slightly faster with the knife, so I think they end up being about balanced.

I personally favour the monkey wrench. The potential to stun an opponent has been overlooked here, and I think I should voice it. The cleaver can create stuns due to shock, but by that point in the fight you know you've won. With the wrench, a solid blow to the head can stun and create a concussion, which gives you a turn to turn the tide of a fight in your favour... Or at least give you time to get some distance.

The wrench is a favourite of mine because of the ability to break arms and so leave the enemy defenceless. The rifle butt works okay too. Smacking them in the head and torso does wonders for making bandits behave better.

I tend to rely on crowbars a lot. They're useful for looting and if the hand slot is already full why not use it for combat? Plus, dropping the crowbar and pulling out another weapon can really bite you if you end up having to run.

It's true, the butcher knife is pretty sweet. Unfortunately, I find myself breaking mine in combat, and then finding a dead squirrel. So I have to replace the butcher knife before I can harvest it's tender morsels! Personally, I'm thinking about going wrench first, then knife. (Unless I have multiple knives available to me!)

And the bandages, I thought those just stopped you from bleeding out after a bad cut... I didn't think they really offered any protection...

First post BTW. Loving this game and I'll be here for quite some time!

Wrench wins for durability.

although the crowbar has a boost for scavenging but why not the wrench or cleaver?
a cleaver could cut threw an object so that you could find more loot behind say a door if you can't use lock picks
and a wrench could un-screw something so you could go threw
although then theirs no point on not being able to use a rifle butt to get threw something as well
but what about the rifle sling couldn't you use it to get up a floor on a building(with a risk of course)
although thinking about it it makes sense that if this was so the items would be over powered

asthepanda2

If you go too far with this line of reasoning then every object could be used for anything, like an episode of MacGuyver.

The crowbar would be the most obviously useful breaking-and-entering tool - the burglar's friend.

A cleaver would be rubbish at breaking down doors. It would go blunt in no time and isn't heavy enough to smash efficiently. You'd be better off kicking the door if you were strong and wearing good boots.

Remember it's a game and only supposed to reference reality, not reflect it perfectly. The crowbar has been deliberately designed as a tradeoff weapon - you lose power but gain looting ability. That's its niche.

just giving ideas for some of the items,
when i said the cleaver could get threw a door it breaks in the proses and is turned into some thing less useful like a handle, and the sling can break and hurt you when climbing.
sorry if i aggravated you.

asthepanda2

Why do you think I'm aggravated? Chill out, was just disagreeing, not raging. If start raging at you you'll know BECAUSE I'LL TYPE IN ALL CAPS LIKE THIS.

;-)

CAPS RAWR but my opinon is monkey wrench the stuns it gets helps all the time

IMAGE(http://www.darkwoodgame.com/sigs/darkwood_sig_600x120.jpg)
Official Trained Dogman

Dual meat cleavers and no shirt is the only way to roll.

That's hardcore.

But I'd actually like to try duel-wield Cleaver and Wrench. I bet it's the best of both worlds.

Lol, way back in 2011, dual-wielding was actually possible, and the way to go:
http://gamedevgonerogue.blogspot.ca/2011/10/roguelike-vs-civ-like.html

Running around with a rusty cleaver on one hand, and a wrench in the other, was a sure-fire way to rule the wastelands!

Unfortunately, it ruined the realism when one held a rifle in one hand, and a wrench in the other, since both would stack. Eventually, I had to restrict it to one-handed stuff. There isn't currently a way to have items across two slots detect each other, or one item use two slots, etc. So no fancy weapons or combo items yet. Maybe someday!

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

Dual-wielding would be a "must" at some point, I think, at least if/when we get handguns and/or knives. :) I'd suggest that only certain weapons "work" when dual-wielded (one-handed ones).

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