DMC guard outfits and heat exhaustion

28 posts / 0 new
Last post
#1
DMC guard outfits and heat exhaustion

I've been having to stripe off clothes all the damn time lately to avoid heat exhaustion when wearing a DMC outfit. I suppose it could be an issue with heat exhaustion being too common in general but mostly I see it with DMC gear. This seems extra wrong to me because it's the exact same gear all the DMC guards wear (just 1 black shirt, I can't even layer them cause of this). Can NPCs suffer heat exhaustion like the player? I feel like a bunch of them will have been dropping dead from it if so, perhaps the source of some of those bodies littering the DMC area.

I do wear a hoodie or hide long coat too, but this only compounds the problem and makes me have to shed it often. Frequently though I have to shed not only that layer but parts of the DMC guard outfit as well, I often have to wear nothing on my torso except the body armor itself just to keep from dropping dead a few turns later. Was it intended to be this unwearable when not in the middle of winter (which a lot of games never see)?

Also I have qualms with heat exhaustion itself. Why, after the very first turn once your Outdoor Temp reaches red, does your Comfortable bar instantly drop to 50% full? And why does it drain so incredibly fast after that, resulting in you transitioning from perfectly fine to dead in just a few turns? I've died to it before from just not noticing it pop up right away and ending a few turns while traveling. I've also almost died in my sleep from it a few times, and I recall seeing others post about dying from it in their sleep.

Honestly, it never happened to me to get a Heat Exhaustion in any other (normal) way than by drinking cola (which is kind of weird on it's own).

It does however happen a lot (and each time I forget to report) when loading the game - I save in totally normal state, but on the load, I am suffering from heat and have to strip to save myself form that strange, rapid deterioration you are describing, Dragoonseal. In my experience it is often happening when I am wearing Patchwork Coat over normal clothes, and goes away after a few turns (usually when a day time changes).

I must say, that from all the mechanics in the game, Heat Exhaustion is the most bizarre one for me - it comes out of nowhere, hits like a battering ram, and then disappears (if one does not self-combust before that happens). There is no warning or gradual worsening, like with getting colder. Just Boom! and your burning baby, like it's the disco era all over again.


<--Mighty (mini)Mod of Doom-->
DeviantArt Gallery of MoD Sprites

There may be some issues that need fixing here.

I just checked the armor and it has the same heat/insulation stats as dogman/patchwork fur. So on it's own, it shouldn't be bad. I did make it quite warm since that's supposed to be a real-world issue with body armor.

However, the balaclava contributes, as do gloves, shoes, shirts, and pants. It's possible that the full DMC uniform is dangerous in warmer weather for more than an hour or two. And it might be causing dead NPCs.

As for hyperthermia (heat exhaustion), that may also need balancing. Realistically, overheating (with no ventilation or mitigation) for an hour or two should be dangerous or fatal. However, there are certain details the game doesn't simulate, such as perspiration and wind. In the real world, overheating usually results in sweating, which drops temperature.

Just to illustrate, the current body temperature code works like this:

Upper and lower safe temperature range for human when naked.

  • Low = 82F (28C)
  • High = 110F (43C)

Rain will push both of these limits up, meaning rain makes it seem colder, unless the player has shelter like a campsite or tarp shelter (in which case it has a lesser effect).

  • Rain = +15F (+7C)

If above the upper limit, the body will begin to increase in core temperature at a certain rate.

  • Rate = +2.16F/hour (+1C/hour)

Adverse conditions will kick in at various temperatures:

  • Normal = 96F - 100F (35C - 38C)
  • Heat Exhaustion = 100F-104F (38C - 40C)
  • Heat Stroke = 104F - 106F (40C - 41C)
  • Organ Failure = 106F (41C) and higher

Dogman fur and tactical armor changes the maximum comfortable temperature by -15F (-7C). The balaclava is -3F (-1.5C). Long-sleeve black shirt is -6F (-3C). Light pants are -6F (-3C). Tactical gloves and shoes have no effect on upper limit.

Given those numbers, a person wearing DMC shirt, armor, pants, and balaclava would have a combined upper limit change of -30F (-15C), making their maximum safe temperature 80F (27C). Michigan, during mid-September (game's starting date), is usually cooler than this. However, warm spells can happen, and 80F+ (27C+) days are not unheard of.

So I guess there are a couple of questions:

  • Would we expect someone wearing full DMC uniform to be overheating on an 80F+ (27C+) day?
  • If they were overheating, and just sat there instead of taking it off, what would happen?
  • Should the body rewarming rate be lower? So climbing the adverse condition latter takes longer?

What do you guys think?

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

Would we expect someone wearing full DMC uniform to be overheating on an 80F+ (27C+) day?

Yes, obviously. Actually, if one wants to be fair, 27C+ is somewhat too hot for a "long trousers + 3 shirts + hoodie" gear, that is kind of a "minimum standard" in NS.

If they were overheating, and just sat there instead of taking it off, what would happen?

My guess is, that while someone dressed that way would be very uncomfortable, the dangerous overheating should only happen if such person is actually participating in some sort of intensive physical activity - forceful march through the hills would definitely be dangerous for him, but sitting in the shadow in the same gear - not so much. Not in the short run at least.

And as far as I know, the first obvious "bad things" happening to such person would be (in order): high perspiration (sweating) and thirst -> feeling weak -> loosing conciousness. Now lying on the cold ground in the changing autumn air, all sweaty and unconscious, he should have a quite decent chance of recovering (especially if the dusk/rain happens in time), maybe suffering some longer-lasting effects like higher thirst, lowered immunity and headaches.

Should the body rewarming rate be lower? So climbing the adverse condition latter takes longer?

Now, after you explained how that stuff works, I am leaning towards conclusion that the mechanics are more or less OK, but it's the UI fault again :(

Simply put - currently, player does not know what the outside temperature is and cannot tell if it's getting too hot or not. For some reason the Outdoor Temperature meter does not show actual temperature but player's comfort level, while the Comfort meter does not show Comfort but the player's body temp. So nothing in the UI shows if it's warm or cold.
IMAGE(http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/Kaaven/Errors%20and%20such/temp_zpsbdbf2cde.png)
Here's a picture of my stats during the same turn, with and without a coat on. They tell me nothing about the actual outside temp.

Now some simple warnings in the status window, saying something like "Its getting colder" or "Player can feel a warm breeze. It's getting warmer" could help. Also some direct feed like "Player is all sweaty, because he is wearing too warm clothes" a turn before the actual overheating starts should do the trick of informing player where that sudden heat stroke is coming from. Even better, a meter showing the actual outside temperature can be considered - not showing the degrees of course, but simply a relative feelings of player it. After all, one can say "Today is very cold" even when wearing a comfortably warm clothing.

Also...

Upper and lower safe temperature range for human when naked.

Low = 82F (28C)

So, following that, because temperature in my house is around 21C, I am risking freezing to death while sitting in my undies? Damn, I am living a life on the edge :D


<--Mighty (mini)Mod of Doom-->
DeviantArt Gallery of MoD Sprites

(edit) wiki thermal neutral zone was already posted.

Have you thought about combining the temperature with your Thirst level also?. Too hot = more water so you don't get dehydrated. For example "If you're out in the desert, you should actually add more clothing to stay cool because it keeps the heat off of your skin, plus you might get a small breeeze between the layers. You would also need alot more water"

Messages to warn you if it's getting too cold/hot would be nice.
Almost dying from a heat stroke while sleeping when you're wearing the full dmc gear happened a couple times so far. But, the Player shouldn't be used to wearing all of that gear, he's been in cryo all this time, and the DMC guards would have been training in it and adapted to the extra heat.

Then again, this game is supposed to take place after some type of apocalypse happened "really like those newspaper articles in game btw", and with some of the technology in DMC, people might have adapted to a higher temperature or the atmosphere is thiner etc. Would make sense as to why the character needs all the clothing.

Since we can get heat stroke, why not be able to get frostbite also?

I for one would like to see the actual temperature while playing. Even a message saying "Summer/Winter begins" etc, would be good. Then you would know when to start looking for something warmer/cooler to wear.

(Quote:
Yes, obviously. Actually, if one wants to be fair, 27C+ is somewhat too hot for a "long trousers + 3 shirts + hoodie" gear, that is kind of a "minimum standard" in NS. )

Thats a bit hot even for just the 2 shirts. I go around in 50-60f "10-15c" or colder, just wearing a t-shirt and jeans, maybe a hoodie if theres a breeze. Anything over 75f "24c" and you'll probably see me in shorts, but I like the cold.

I'll need more time to formulate a response to your UI point. (I think it's valid.)

However, I really wanted to post a reply to this right away:

Upper and lower safe temperature range for human when naked.
Low = 82F (28C)

So, following that, because temperature in my house is around 21C, I am risking freezing to death while sitting in my undies? Damn, I am living a life on the edge :D

In short, yes! I was surprised to learn that the human body is not comfortable at room temperature (70F or 20C). One's clothing is necessary to remain thermally neutral at that temperature. Without clothes:

The Thermoneutral Zone describes a range of temperatures of the immediate environment in which a 'standard' healthy adult can maintain normal body temperature without needing to use energy above and beyond normal basal metabolic rate. Its value is 25-30 degrees celsius for a naked man, standing upright, in still air. Note this is for a resting human and does not allow for shivering, sweating or exercising. Even with light clothing, radiation and convection losses are dramatically reduced, effectively reducing the TNZ. Hence a 'comfortable' temperature within a controlled environment like an airconditioned building will be more like 18-22 degree Celsius. --Wikipedia entry on thermal neutral zone

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was another article I read that said a naked person would actually begin shivering in a room below 82F, and would eventually suffer mild or moderate hypothermia.

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

OK, I see.
However this article talks about a person standing perfectly still, which is never the case for any human (unless one is a Yogi master). Especially for a guy trying to survive in harsh environment the threshold should be lower, as he is performing a physical activities almost all the time - and in context of the whole discussion, maybe it would be some idea to add a test recognize if the player acted recently. So a PC staying still (sleeping/resting) could actually have a different threshold of cold(higher)/warmth(lower) than an active one.


<--Mighty (mini)Mod of Doom-->
DeviantArt Gallery of MoD Sprites

This turned out to be a great discussion!

You know I spent awhile a good amount of time researching and educating myself today, was pretty fun. Lost myself for a few hours bouncing around wiki pages and other sites soaking up info on temperatures, humidity, dew points, wind chill, and how it related to perceived temps, insulation, metabolic rates, temperature regulation, and such. Also looked up weather specifics for Michigan, which I read can be pretty windy. I was originally going to make a big informed and researched reply to the thread, but then I remembered I'm lazy. Also the model that Dan has currently in place seems like a pretty good approximation anyway, so I'll just stick to the part that I really don't like the most.

You asked if we should expect someone wearing full DMC uniform to be overheating on an 80F+ (27C+) day. For the sake of argument, lets assume yes that's too much and they'll overheat. I don't know if I agree with that though (and I mean I really don't know), I'd like to think that someone could wear full gear like that for a day in windy Michigan at the start of Autumn without keeling over from a heat illness. But maybe that's just my inner Floridian talking. Also to consider is that the player is probably way more active during the game than your average person, which skews things.

You asked if they were overheating, and just sat there instead of taking it off, what would happen? Well thermal regulation kicks in, they sweat! Dehydration increases, fatigue increases, comfort decreases, to varying degrees. Also electrolyte depletion from the sweating, which can affect rehydration, give further muscle weakness, and later on give you some really terrible cramps. So sweating first, and that'll cover most situations I'd think as it's a pretty effective cooling method, but later on come the heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

So here's my biggest beef with the current system: There's no sweating! As soon as you get a single tick above your comfort zone and the temp bar turns red this happens:

IMAGE(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i124/Dragoonseal/Redtempprogression_zps6df72c4e.png)
(I'd like to note it was even raining when I took these screenshots.)

On turn 1 you drop from a full green comfort bar to only 50% full and instant heat exhaustion. Turn 2 takes another huge chunk out of the comfort bar. Turn 3 takes yet another huge chunk out of the comfort bar and transitions you go heat stroke. Turn 4 you're dead.

Why? Why do you only get 3 turns to notice it and do something about it before you combust and die? Why the weird and particular decreases in the comfort bar? With freezing you can strip completely naked and still have like 15+ turns before you freeze to death, losing only 1 or a couple ticks of your comfort bar each turn, or even longer than that if you're only partially into the freezing range and not totally naked. Freezing also has more condition transitions, starting with shivering, then freezing, then hypothermic, before finally you freeze to death. With heat you only have heat exhaustion and heat stroke, then dead.

So I'd like to propose primarily two change suggestions. First off some sort of sweaty and uncomfortable condition that first happens when you get too hot, before it transitions to heat exhaustion and heat stroke. The second is an extension on how long it takes a red temp bar to kill you. I understand that severe heat illnesses can come on faster than cold related ones, but 4 turns is just excessively fast for going one tick past the comfort zone.

I'd also like to suggest an optional change. Currently you're either freezing and that progresses until you die, too hot and that progresses until you die, or you're in the comfort zone and you're fine. I think there should be something between the comfort zone and the other two, where you're uncomfortably cold or hot (shivering or sweaty conditions, perhaps), but it doesn't progress past that and constantly drain your comfort bar. So for an example it could be a hot day and you get the sweaty condition and its penalties (faster dehydration, etc) but it doesn't drain your comfort bar non-stop until you die, so you could choose to either just put up with it and the penalties or deal with it and shed some clothes or something. And of course the always present "more everything please" suggestion, more clothing choices with varied thermal properties.

Also I noticed a few things earlier today after digging through the code that I never realized before and may or may not be obvious. I wanted to mention them because they're part of the reason my character overheats often and it's good to know info in general. T-shirts are less warm than black DMC shirts, but also provide less protection and protect less areas. Cargo shorts are less warm than full jeans or pants but protect less areas. Neither hide or black gloves protect at all, so ditch'em if you're too warm. Shoes and black boots are functionally identical. Body armor warms the same as a hide or dogman coat. The new hide long coat warms the same as a coat, as in much more than a hoodie! That makes long coat plus armor like wearing two coats, so be aware. The balaclava offers a little protection for what I believe is the neck slot, but shirts, hoodies, coats, and body armor also all protect that slot as well, and some of them protect it far better, so it's probably worth removing if you're too warm. The armored helmet doesn't affect temp.

Ok, I'm starting to see the problem(s) better now. Let me see if I can summarize:

  • Heat Exhaustion happens too suddenly, without warning.
  • Overheating in general is too rapid.
  • Temperature and comfort UI is a bit hard to understand.
  • Sleeping characters will die of heat instead of waking up to regulate warmth.
  • Sweating and shivering should help temperature regulation, but currently don't (or don't exist).

One of the biggest problems seems to be the sudden heat exhaustion and overheating rate. That first overheating step is a big one, and there's no warning. Part of the problem is that the passive rewarm rate of the body is 2.16 degrees per turn, and the difference between normal body temp (98.6F) and heat exhaustion (100.1F) is only 1.5 degrees. So the first turn the player overheats, they go straight past 100.1F to 98.6+2.16 = 100.76F, which is heat exhaustion.

Now, we could just decrease the passive rewarm rate to be <1.5 degrees per turn. This would give the player one turn of warning as their body temp bar increases. However, players might not notice it, and it mucks around with a fairly realistic value for hypothermia rewarming.

If we instead restructure the overheating conditions so there's a new "sweating" condition before heat exhaustion, we could make that condition active up to 101F. This way, the first turn the player overheats, their bar changes (could make it yellow), and they see a message about sweating. This is already an improvement over the current system, as players get a "soft" warning.

Then, we could add some in-game effects to the sweating and shivering conditions, as you suggest. Sweating could reduce the passive rewarm rate, and raise the min and max safe temperatures, effectively cooling the player. Shivering could do the opposite. In both cases, there would be a good chance that the player bounced back to normal temperature soon afterward. In some cases, however, they'd still be too hot/cold for sweating/shivering to cover the difference, and it'd just get worse.

Furthermore, we could make the shivering and sweating conditions apply certain side-effects, like more fatigue and hunger for shivering, or more dehydration for sweating. Players could ignore those conditions if they were lazy, but there would be a slight penalty for being in those zones.

The UI, on the other hand, might be trickier to solve. Having the sweating condition as a buffer between normal and heat exhaustion will help, since we can now see overheating conditions are imminent. However, do either of the bars need changing?

The first one shows if you are currently in danger or not, based on body temperature. Green is good, and yellow/red appear as one drifts out of the comfort range.

The second one shows if the outdoor temperature is too warm or too cold for your current clothes and conditions. Is there a better way to show this info? Should these be changed or consolidated? Or does shivering/sweating fix this issue?

Finally, I think I can tweak the heat/cold conditions to ruin someone's chances of sleeping. In theory, that should help them wake up when overheating or freezing.

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

Also, Kaaven's point about activity increasing the range of comfortable temperatures seems logical to me. I can probably assume the player is active unless they're resting or sleeping, and add corresponding penalties to temperature then.

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

The second one shows if the outdoor temperature is too warm or too cold for your current clothes and conditions. Is there a better way to show this info? Should these be changed or consolidated? Or does shivering/sweating fix this issue?

Why not just have it show what the temp is outside? Doing it this way, you'd be able to tell just by looking at the other bar if your character has too many clothes or not enough over a couple turns as they slowly start warming up/get cold. If you go outside with a coat on, and it's too hot out you'll know. Most people should know that a sleeping bag or more/less clothes will warm/cool you. They don't need to raise the temp bar when placed on the ground/camp.

Finally, I think I can tweak the heat/cold conditions to ruin someone's chances of sleeping. In theory, that should help them wake up when overheating or freezing.

I think this would be a good addition. Have a message saying "Player woke up sweating/shivering", it's easy to understand.

Also, Kaaven's point about activity increasing the range of comfortable temperatures seems logical to me. I can probably assume the player is active unless they're resting or sleeping, and add corresponding penalties to temperature then.

The player does seem to be very active most of the time. He always seems to be carrying a couple backpacks/bags, vehicle and all the gear he has on with him wherever he goes. I was wondering if there was an unseen fatigue bar connected to the overload and hunger/thirst? Because the more weight that you are carrying more, you'd get hungry etc, faster.

The penalties for sweating could start as a slightly higher need for water, then a headache, diarrhea as they start getting more dehydrated, then heat exaustion starts kicking in more.

As for shivering, while they slowly get colder they might need a bit more food to add energy to help regulate the body temp, keep getting colder and having an increasing chance for frostbite, starting with a bruise and slowly turning in to a crippled hand etc, until it gets warmed up and heals.

"Ya lol, I play Unrealworld quite a bit, getting frostbite in a game is rough"

This way, the first turn the player overheats, their bar changes (could make it yellow), and they see a message about sweating. This is already an improvement over the current system, as players get a "soft" warning.

That covers the bare minimum, as it should negate the "bursting in flames" effect. Any warning is a good thing.

Then, we could add some in-game effects to the sweating and shivering conditions, as you suggest. Sweating could reduce the passive rewarm rate, and raise the min and max safe temperatures, effectively cooling the player. Shivering could do the opposite.
(...)
Furthermore, we could make the shivering and sweating conditions apply certain side-effects, like more fatigue and hunger for shivering, or more dehydration for sweating.

That would be a nice addition, if implemented right. You should, however, consider using those effects in more universal manner. For example, sweating when being sick (even when feeling cold) is a real thing, and can be a danger if a sweaty sick person is forced to expose themselves to the outside low temperatures.

However, do either of the bars need changing?
(...)
The first one shows if you are currently in danger or not, based on body temperature. Green is good, and yellow/red appear as one drifts out of the comfort range.

The second one shows if the outdoor temperature is too warm or too cold for your current clothes and conditions. Is there a better way to show this info? Should these be changed or consolidated? Or does shivering/sweating fix this issue?

Honestly, I would like to keep those two and get another one showing the actual outdoor temp. But since the UI space is in high demand, keeping things as they are (plus the changes mentioned above) might be a good course of action.

If, however, some changes might take place, here are some ideas:

1. Moving the second bar to the Conditions screen and renaming it to something like "Temperature Insulation" and replacing it on the main screen with a "Outdoor Temperature" meter that would show the actual outdoor temperature.

Two problems with that idea, that I can see, are: a)players wanting to set up a camp, would have to go to the Conditions screen to check if it's warm enough (within the context of their current set-up) and b)the "real" temperature meter would be the only non-character related meter on the main page.

2) Another, more "ultimate" move, would be to remove the button for Conditions screen and use the UI space gained with a new Temp Meter. A button for switching between Conditions and Inventory screen should make more sense on the Inventory screen anyway.
(Topic for another discussion, but the Conditions screen could use some attention as well).

3) A bar-within-a-bar - some way of marking the outside temp on the current second bar. It is simple and not-UI-consuming, but not very clear.

In the end, players lived without a thermometer before, so it seems it is a fancy, but not exactly necessary, thing to have. The important thing, is to make sure that players know where the sudden change of status is coming from and what caused it. So while mechanics changes are desirable, the most pressing matter is to set-up a way to correctly, and gradually, inform the players on what's going on with their character.


<--Mighty (mini)Mod of Doom-->
DeviantArt Gallery of MoD Sprites

Like Kaaven the first thing I thought was just add another bar. However after thinking about it more I'm not sure I'd really want an outside temperature reading separate from an insulation bar, as it's really the end result combination of the two that's important.

Also I forgot to mention something last post, when I was suggesting the additional cold/warm ranges just outside of the comfortable range that don't constantly drain your comfort bar. In tandem with those extra ranges I figure the comfortable zone should be reduced, as in it's easier to get too cold/warm and harder to stay in the perfectly comfortable range all the time with the same set of clothes. That way the sweaty/shivering conditions have to be dealt with more often, but are no longer life threatening.

As it stands currently weather can potentially stop being a factor whatsoever with the right combination of clothing. Cold in particular stops being of any concern in the slightest after a certain point, but even heat isn't much of an issue if you don't overload on clothes too much like I did and pay attention for any temp spikes. And that's really unfortunate to me, I think it's a lot more fun when you have to more actively battle against or take into consideration the elements. Rain especially I think should be more of an important factor depending on how hard it's coming down. I think rain should have its own set of conditions like hot/cold that give varying degrees of penalties depending on how rain-soaked you get, instead of just a flat -15C temp modifier. The penalties could either be decently severe if you want to also give ways to combat being rain-soaked, or if not then the penalties shouldn't be too severe, just an inconvenience/hassle thing you have to deal with any time it rains.

EDIT: I know Dan already made some changes to how these things work as mentioned in the News section, but I just wanted to add a few things. I registered an account just to reply to this thread!

I like Grelko's ideas about tying body temperature to hydration. Overheating could lead to a sweating status, which increases the rate of dehydration. Higher levels of dehydration and heat could cause the "unconscious" status, as an effect of heat stroke. In theory, passing out while overheated and exhausted could save a person's life - the resulting rest state of low activity and slower breathing could lower core temperature just enough to stave off death. Unfortunately, if one doesn't wake up in time, dehydration could easily kill as well.

This sort of thing would only be plausible in-game if player activity was factored into body temp. Traveling more tiles in a single turn, especially through rough terrain like hills and woods, would cause more heat build-up. I'm not sure how outdoor temperature is calculated, but certain terrain types could also modify this. Resting in the shade of the woods or near flowing water might ease heat exhaustion more than resting on open ground, on hills, or in the concrete jungle. Environmentalist ideas like "urban heat islands" aren't something you'd expect a post-catastrophic society would think about... but then again, they have to wonder how everything went down in the first place, right?

I might wait to see how the new heat feature feels before adjusting the UI. I agree that the UI isn't ideal, but the new sweating mechanic and temperature calculations might make UI changes redundant (or even make whole UI bars unnecessary). Let's see how they play out.

@adam88027, that's actually not far off from the new mechanics. Sweating reduces heat gain at the cost of thirst, and resting/sleeping will drop heat gain as well. So far, in practice, I'm seeing overheating stopped by sweating cyclically. I.e. player overheats and starts sweating, that cools them off back to normal, they start sweating again, etc.

As for Kaaven's suggestion of making sweating more generic, it should theoretically be possible to assign it as a side-effect to something. However, I'll have to see if that's even necessary given the way fever works. Fever currently drops the maximum comfortable temperature, while raising the minimum, which should cause overlap of sweating and shivering zones.

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

I didn't even knew one can suffer a fever right now...


<--Mighty (mini)Mod of Doom-->
DeviantArt Gallery of MoD Sprites

Here is a question. Does the hex and/or camp a player is in effect the relative temp and the player temp with the new system? I would imagine being in the shade of a forest or inside a mobile home would have an effect the players body temperature.

Correction, I thought I had added a fever condition. It turns out to be rolled-into the "Weakened Immune System" and other infection-stat conditions. I've made a note to self to look into breaking that out and making it separate.

@Onyx Virus, the campsite has an effect in that it adjusts shelter values, but not much else. (Which affects rain penalties to body temp.) The game doesn't track radiant heat from the sun, so shade doesn't matter. I do have a note somewhere about making different hexes adjust temperature, though. You're right that dense forests, for example, would be cooler on a sunny day.

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

I would like to suggest that the best way to add a temperature bar, so to speak, would be to add a little thermometer icon next to the weather icon. Simple, effective, and easy on UI space. The thermometer icon doesn't even need to have an actual temperature, just have varying shades of blue/red to show the temperature.

Also, sweating and shivering as side-effects of illness is a brilliant idea, as is the idea of a functional 'fever' condition. Both of these, I feel, add a good degree of realism to the currently vague 'weakened immune system' condition. Further, with the Medic skill, there should be even more detail regarding illness, and means to diagnose the cause of a 'weakened immune system' for the player, as I have had my immune stat bar drop massively, and continuously with nothing I could find that would explain why it was happening.

Edit: I was struck by a possible means of handling this situation, diminishing returns, the more layers you have on, the less effective each of those layers, so players don't have to take off their armor to keep from dying of overheating on a warm autumn afternoon.

I don't think I will be able to play anymore until this Heat Exhaustion issue is resolved, I just lost a 63 day survivor to the heat going up while I was sleeping and dying before I could wake and remove cloths.

This is just too damned frustrating. I mean, I have lost characters to mistakes, and I have lost characters to bad luck, but this was quite frankly just stupid. This was my best character yet, I was really having a good time with this one. ;.;

28C as lower safe limit for naked human? i must say that 24C (without wind) is quite comfortable

--
___crowbar_of_death___/

@Aiden, the temperature bar by the weather icon might be a way to go. The only drawback I can think of is that it won't be visible while you're trying on clothes (item screen). At least, not without some UI reorganizing.

In the meantime, the weather icon will still report warm/cold on the text pop-up, along with more specific weather info.

As for the overheating, hang in there. The latest build's sweating feature seems to work as intended so far. I get repeated bouts of sweating when overdressed, which stop me from overheating.

@kotc, that's possible. The 28C limit is just an average value for a certain type of person. That number fluctuates based on one's size, metabolic rates, radiant energy (sunlight), etc.

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

I just had my first 'sweating' incident just now. Checked out the wiki and nothing there but I don't have the medic skill so I don't know if I'm getting sick or over dressed. Going to prance around in the forest naked for a bit and pop an amoxicilin just to be safe but was wondering if the sweating warning is actually for too much clothes or illness or both at this point? Cause the ui shows Player is starting to sweat/You are comfortable for 'sweating' and 'outdoor temp' which outdoor temp looks like it's actually about to drop off to blue if I get naked.

This may also explain why i keep finding so many dead DMC guards laying around, do you think they may be dieing of heat exhaustion because of there outfits?

one suggestion I could make is that when you get cold or hot very little changes except for comfort and temperature. As most people tend to focus more on the sprite of their character and not so much on the ui stats we could addsome kind of spriteto show coldth or heat exhaustion.character looks to be shivering or sweating perhaps and not quite so much rely on the stats.And dying of heat exhaustion is bad.. especially when you sleep and wake up to the "you died of organ failure" screen.

I don't think that's needed given that when there is a change in Philips status a message appears over the sprite at the start of the turn to notify the player.

ah.I was unaware it had changed like that since some of the recent updates

Yeah, 0.986 and 0.987 have some changes which should help with overheating. Namely, sweating causes the player to cool faster in exchange for faster thirst and higher scent per turn. And in practice, this should make it possible to wear the armor without overheating (status just switches between sweating and normal until outside temperature gets cooler again).

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games