Crafting "bugs" and torch lifespan

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Crafting "bugs" and torch lifespan

I'm not sure if this is a bug or simply an oversight when the recipe was coded, but I can't craft any torches with 'Clean Rags'... only 'Dirty Rags' work in the recipes, it seems.

This is, obviously, very irritating when I spend hours sterilizing all 30 of my dirty rags into clean ones, then found I couldn't use them to craft torches!

Also, are we supposed to be able to craft campfires with a 'Newspaper' in place of 'Twigs & Leaves'? I can never get it to craft with a newspaper for some reason.

I'd also be interested to know if it's normal that a Crude Torch dies after one single turn? I don't mind it being crappy, but that seems to make them rather pointless wastes of time if that's how long they're *supposed* to last (two or three turns would be a better balance, IMO).

My Mods:SaveMan|Fishing|Shouldered|Bottles

I don't know about clean rags and torches but if it is as you say that might be an overlooking.

However you are right, we were able to craft campfires with newspapers but that's no longer possible. I checked and it was this way in previous versions as well - possibly since newspaper had a size change.


<--Mighty (mini)Mod of Doom-->
DeviantArt Gallery of MoD Sprites

At least now I know these are both bugs and not just something I was doing wrong. Hopefully both can be easily fixed for a hotfix update (that also fixes the awful "rotating item graphics corruption" bug and inability to leave the medical clinic!).

My Mods:SaveMan|Fishing|Shouldered|Bottles

Sounds like I may have broken the campfire recipe that uses newspapers. I'll check that out.

Regarding the torch with clean rags, that's something I must've forgotten to add. I have to write a recipe for every possible combo, so I probably missed the clean rag (or added clean rags after the torch recipe was created).

One of the things I'm considering in the proposed crafting overhaul is a way to substitute similar ingredients, so I only need to specify a type of ingredient. E.g. something like "1x source of fire" instead of "1x lighter or quality torch or crude torch or campfire or tiny flame."

I'd like to get started on that after the UI/font overhaul, so it could be soon. But even if the crafting system doesn't get an overhaul, you're right that the torch should support both input types. I'll end up adding that variant, one way or another.

Lastly, the crude torch duration is meant to be crappy, but not useless. So if it's dying too soon, it might need adjusting. As designed, it's supposed to last two hours (basically, the turn it was created, plus one turn). I figured players would always prefer to do a quality torch if they could, but a crude torch would work in a pinch, giving players one full turn of crafting or movement to get better lighting setup.

However, there's also a bug in the crafting system which penalizes players if they use their only light source as an ingredient (they basically lose its benefits while crafting with it). Unfortunately, that means they lose all their moves. In practice, players end up needing two sources of light to craft at night. And since the crude torch dies the next turn, it's pretty useless.

I'm hoping to solve that bug in the crafting system overhaul, too. Probably by making crafting a separate UI, which uses copies of the original items, so the original items keep imparting their benefits to the player until destroyed/consumed.

TL/DR version: Yes, those are bugs, and I hope to have them solved in either the big resolution feature update, or the crafting feature update. Thanks for the heads-up!

PS: You mention fixing the "rotating item graphics corruption bug" and "inability to leave the medical clinic." Are these still not fixed for you? The update on 1/18/2013 should have fixes these issues, so if they're still broken, let me know!

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

Thanks for the detailed and interesting reply, Dan!

I remember reading you saying things to that effect re: changing the crafting system... that although you know folks (like me!) really want new recipes and items, you don't want to spend ages adding them only to have them "break" when you change the system and need to do all the work again. That makes sense. Without being privy to the "under the hood" workings of crafting as it stands, I'm not fussed if it continues to work as is (each recipe requires a specific item, such as "x1 Branch, x1 Twigs OR x1 Newspaper", x1 Lighter OR Torch" etc.) or if it works as you suggest it could ("x1 firewood, x1 kindling, x1 fire source") but can see the benefits of the latter system. I presume that would mean each item would thus have "properties" assigned to them, for example:

Multitool = cutting/skinning (crafting), slashing (combat), piercing (combat), pliers (crafting), screwdriver (crafting).
Crowbar = demolition (scavenging), prying (crafting), blunt/bashing (combat).
Meat Cleaver = slashing (combat), chopping (crafting), cutting/skinning (crafting).
Monkey Wrench = blunt/bashing (combat), wrench (crafting).
Kitchen Knife = piercing (combat, slashing (combat), cutting/skinning (crafting).
Pliers = pliers (crafting).
Screwdriver = screwdriver (crafting), piercing (combat).
Dirty Rag = bandage (medicine), rag (crafting).
Twigs & Leaves = kindling (crafting), plant matter (crafting), tea-making (crafting).
Crude Torch = light source (movement), fire source (crafting), burning (combat).
etc.?

I agree that the crude torch should be pretty crappy, but I do think it's a bit too useless right now (probably in big part due to that bug)... I find I craft it, then my turn runs out, then it turns to ash... then I craft one... and so on, in a loop, until I just decide "screw it" since I could have moved further using the same turns even in pitch dark. ELasting just one more turn would be better, but that's just my opinion. Instead or as well, I also think making Quality Torches slightly easier to craft by reducing the Lighter Fluid required to something like:

Quality Torch: x1 Branch + x1 Lighter/Torch + x1 Dirty/Clean Rag + x50 Lighter Fluid

... would be a big help. I'd actually like to see Lighter Fluid findable (rare!) outside of lighters and thus used in a couple more recipes (x25 Lighter Fluid as an alternate to twigs/newspaper/kindling to craft a large campfire, maybe?).

As an aside, I'd just like to say I'm excited about the potential for the crafting system to become even greater; I already like it a lot now and crafting on the whole is my very favourite aspect of the whole game! :)

Regarding the bugs, thank YOU for the heads up. Since the version number remained at 960b (checking Desura and NS's splash screen didn't show a 'newer version'), I didn't know there was a "hotfix" update! Will download and try it now... thanks for the fix!

Again, thanks for the detailed reply, mate.

My Mods:SaveMan|Fishing|Shouldered|Bottles

I only want to add that this second proposed crafting system (the one with properties) would be a great help for modders later. Imagine someone makes a "Junk" mod adding a tons of items. The the recipe for campfire (in current mode) would look like that:

lighter OR matches OR flint OR fire-starting (skill) AND branch OR log OR rotting board OR broken crate lid OR broken chair leg OR broken table leg AND rags OR twigs OR newspaper OR old document OR toilet paper OR old comic-book OR old book OR lighter liquid OR gasoline OR nail polish remover OR...


<--Mighty (mini)Mod of Doom-->
DeviantArt Gallery of MoD Sprites

That was in the back of my mind when the "new system" was suggested, too. No need to add new items to recipes, just give them the appropriate "properties" for existing recipes to use.

My Mods:SaveMan|Fishing|Shouldered|Bottles

It sounds like the crude torch is lasting one turn less than it should, so it's probably bugged.

For the quality torch, there is actually a second recipe which has ingredients that are easier to come by. But I agree that the 100x lighter fluid is a price not really worth paying. I was worried that a lighter held so little fluid that it would take no less than an entire lighter of fluid to make a difference. But in practice, it probably never gets used due to the high cost.

While thinking about lighter fluid, a problem with the new "adjective" crafting system occurred to me.

E.g. lighter fluid has a "flammable" property, but so does a branch, newspaper, or twigs. They aren't equal, though. A droplet of lighter fluid shouldn't substitute for newspaper or twigs when making a fire. 25-50 droplets, maybe. But then, "flammable" is not really enough of a descriptor to use without more granularity.

But if I start making too many subcategories, I might end up back where I am now: with a specific recipe for each item. I'll have to ponder that some more.

Dan Fedor - Founder, Blue Bottle Games

For things where the property is scalable just assign it a number (e.g. newspaper is Flammable - 20, lighter fluid is flammable - 1) and then have recipes look for propety ≥ value (flammable ≥ 25). This would allow more flexibility with fewer recipes.